Motorsports: History and Legacy Discussion Thread

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Old 11-02-2023, 07:03 AM
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I remember watching that car's debut, it was a master stroke of genius for Barnard to come up with the idea. IIRC, he also pioneered the use of CF for a monocoque which didn't immediately pass muster with the FIA. Seems like they had to run it at Indy first but that could be completely wrong.
Old 11-02-2023, 11:25 AM
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Originally Posted by Chief F1 Fan
I remember watching that car's debut, it was a master stroke of genius for Barnard to come up with the idea. IIRC, he also pioneered the use of CF for a monocoque which didn't immediately pass muster with the FIA. Seems like they had to run it at Indy first but that could be completely wrong.
FIA was OK with the MP4/1 carbon tub (they didn't crash test back then).. However ALOT of skeptics were critical of the carbon tub thinking it would shatter like glass in a big shunt, but Watson's big 1981 Monza crash shut down those critics. The engine/gearbox torn off but the tub remained intact and Watson also walked away from that accident. It took CART/Champ until 1991 when they approved the first all carbon chassis. Carbon had been used in various parts but a complete single structure monocoque took awhile.

Maybe not as famous as Newey, however Barnard's 3 greatest technical achievements are still used today on every F1 car which says alot about his legacy
1) carbon monocoque
2) Wasp tail bodywork for downforce
3) Semiautomatic gearbox



Last edited by Legend2TL; 11-02-2023 at 11:33 AM.
Old 11-23-2023, 07:48 AM
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Reviving Penske’s Last IndyCar Winner

The Beast probably the fastest and most powerful car to have ever raced at Indy. Saw a Little Al at a Baltimore Grand Prix promo a decade ago, he signed my pic of that car and said he asked Roger if he could have that car if he won the race (which was very probably), Roger said no.


Last edited by Legend2TL; 11-23-2023 at 07:54 AM.
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Old 11-23-2023, 08:15 AM
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F1 Onboard Ralf Schumacher 2003 BMW Williams FW25 (V10 Sound) Red Bull Ring Legends P

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Old 11-23-2023, 08:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Legend2TL
The Beast probably the fastest and most powerful car to have ever raced at Indy. Saw a Little Al at a Baltimore Grand Prix promo a decade ago, he signed my pic of that car and said he asked Roger if he could have that car if he won the race (which was very probably), Roger said no.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5BJX...heRACERChannel
Legendary car! Glad to see some are still running.
Old 11-29-2023, 08:36 PM
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Old 11-29-2023, 08:39 PM
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One of the reasons why I can't watch IndyCar anymore. The cars are just too ugly now.
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Old 12-01-2023, 09:37 AM
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Were the V10s the best?

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Old 12-04-2023, 11:49 AM
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Originally Posted by F-C
One of the reasons why I can't watch IndyCar anymore. The cars are just too ugly now.
I occasionally watch a Indycar race and yes the new windshield cars are fugdly
Old 12-04-2023, 07:54 PM
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IndyCar desperately needs a new car. Their current car wasn't that good looking to begin with, then adding that aeroscreen disrupted whatever good looks it did have. Too bad they have no money to upgrade the car. We're a long way from the golden years when the top teams all introduced brand new cars every year. It's now a glorified club league.
Old 12-14-2023, 12:07 PM
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Chris Harris on The 1990 Williams-Renault FW13B Formula One Car - Hungarian Grand Pri

Interesting look back with Jonathan Williams, especially the look back with Mansell testing the car in the winter of 1990.
Also interesting how Head promoted Newey to designer of the FW14 and how he spent 6 weeks designing a new gearbox to meet Newey's dimensions requirements on the FW14.


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Old 01-06-2024, 05:16 PM
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The best F1 documentary you've never heard of (?)

Old 01-16-2024, 03:47 PM
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Wins by position:

470x wins from Pole
261x from P2
133x from P3
65x from P4
48x from P5
41x from P6
22x from P7
17x from P8
5x from P9
12x from P10
5x from P11 - Alonso, Gethin, Mass, Scheckter, Coulthard
4x from P12 - Mansell, Baghetti, Clark, Peterson
3x from P13 - Prost, Hanks, McLaren
7x from P14 - Panis, Verstappen, Hamilton, Button, Herbert, Jones, Swiekert
2x from P16 - Schumacher, Stewart
2x from P17 - Raikkonen, Watson
1x from P18 - Barrichello
1x from P22 - Watson
Old 01-23-2024, 09:56 AM
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^ The story of Watson's race from P22 is amusing and amazing.

https://www.motorsportmagazine.com/a...g-masterclass/


Forty years and one day ago, John Watson and Niki Lauda were sat slumped in front of McLaren team boss Ron Dennis and tech chief John Barnard in the team’s Long Beach pits, slightly at a loss.

The driving pair had both contrived to have one of the worst qualifying sessions of their careers on the same weekend. 22nd and 23rd? It didn’t look good.

In this darkest of moments though, Watson felt he might well have the situation sussed, and would go on 24 hours later to deliver a blinding win in the Californian sunshine with a record which might never be broken.

Remembering how he raced from 22nd to a famous victory, four decades later, Watson says “the car did everything I wanted – we were just so quick”. No-one has ever come from further back to claim a GP win.

Horrendous qualifying sessions in both the ‘83 season-opener at Rio and the next race in the US originated from a last-minute revision in the technical regulations from Jean-Marie Balestre’s FISA (now FIA), causing McLaren, Williams and Brabham plus others to scramble into frenzied redesigns of their cars.

“Balestre decided that he was going to do away with ground effects, his diktat was everybody had to have a flat-bottomed F1 car,” remembers Watson. “Nobody really knew what the future was going to be.”

The upshot of this was, at least in the short-term, that teams with turbo engines such as Renault and Ferrari were now supposedly at an advantage, as they relied on more of their pace coming via the immense horsepower at their disposal rather than aerodynamics.

Of F1’s golden age garagistas continuing to rely on their trusty Cosworth DFVs, Brabham was still working through its BMW turbo gremlins, Williams had only just done its Honda deal and the McLaren TAG-Porsche was still someway down the pipeline.

At least over a qualifying lap, performance suddenly became an uphill struggle for McLaren. Not having the sheer turbo force to brutally coax its tyres to life on a single outlap, the Woking cars were left circulating on dead rubber.

The scale of this new problem became apparent to Watson when he first drove the rapidly revised MP4/1C at practice for the Brazilian GP.

“You thought ‘****ing hell, this has got no grip!’”

“It was a bit of a wake-up call because all of a sudden you thought ‘****ing hell, this has got no grip!’” he says.

Team-mate Lauda would qualify eighth, 1.5sec off Keke Rosberg’s pole time, while Watson was a further second back – and 16th.

However, what McLaren was losing in the early season’s qualifying session, it would make up for on grand prix Sundays – due to the MP4/1C being something of a Michelin whisperer.

“As it turned out, particularly in Rio, that actually was a really lovely race car,” Watson says.

“The problem we had was to get the core of the tyre working in the correct temperature window. But in the race [with the McLaren being kinder to its tyres] we flew.”

In Rio — a foretaste of Long Beach — Watson saw off five cars on lap one and was second halfway through the race when his engine let go.

The potential was obvious. Dennis and Barnard weren’t particularly convinced two weeks later after qualifying in Long Beach though, as an indignant Watson and Lauda lined up 22nd and 23rd.

“It was all doom and gloom on the faces of the team – always blame it on the drivers!”

The MP4/1C was really suffering round street circuit’s twists and turns, particularly over its concrete surface sections. Watson was confident he could get something out of the race though, having found an extra edge himself in the weeks preceding.

“At the end of ‘83, Ron, Niki and myself sat down. Ron said Niki’s physical trainer, a great man named Willi Dungl, would now be available to me and the team,” says Watson.

“As well as exercise, we would do physio work, monitor my blood sugar and dietary preparation.

“I became a disciple of all this stuff, because I found it interesting. Niki was a bit more sneaky: he still liked a cigarette, liked a double espresso, a whisky from time to time.”

Watson was then able to follow the fitness work to the letter after avoiding a near-disaster with the press.

“During the Brazil weekend, a number of the British Fleet Street media approached me and said, ‘John, we understand you’re going on this Marlboro South America promotional tour. We think this would make a great story: Britain’s leading F1 driver, going to Argentina six months after the secession of the Falklands War.’ I said ‘Ah, I hadn’t thought about that…’”

Watson went straight to the US instead, and it was just him and Dungl getting the body and mind in order in the run up to Long Beach.

“He got to know me way better than he would have done,” says Watson. “It was seminal for me, not just on the physical side, but also on the focus and self-belief: ‘You know what? You’re a ****ing good race driver’. It was confidence boosting.”

Watson would need that in spades starting in 22nd on the Long Beach grid but, when the flag fell, despite falling behind Lauda, progress was immediate.

“Unsurprisingly, the car began to transform from one that couldn’t get grip, to having more grip, being balanced and really dialled in,” he remembers.

The two McLaren men began to climb up the order in tandem, aided by typical reliability issues of the era and some slightly comical prangs.

Leaders Patrick Tambay and Rosberg had been squabbling for some time in the early stages. Rosberg did a 360-degree spin whilst trying to overtake at one point, before Tambay turned in on the Finn at that hairpin on lap 25 – the Frenchman was out, with Rosberg soon following.

Behind them, Lauda and Watson had been overtaking competitors in formation at almost a car a lap, aside from seven laps spent behind a typically uncompromising Alan Jones, back in F1 with Arrows.

By lap 28 the McLarens had overtaken nearly 20 cars – only Williams’ Jacques Laffite and the Brabham of Riccardo Patrese were in front of them. Four tours later Watson dispensed of Lauda “taking a punt” with a signature move: tyres smoking, McLaren squirrelling as he managed to get it slowed down not a moment too soon.

“I was basically very good on brakes – I would I just focus on that,” he explains.

“I didn’t worry about the gears going six, fifth, fourth, third, whatever. Just put the foot on the brake and 100% commitment. Then I’d just go from six to third. I wasn’t rolling my foot, trying to blip the throttle going down each gear. I think that that gave me certain advantages in the braking area.

“I used that to very good effect on that particular weekend. And the car was just so quick. I could hustle the hell out of it.”

Watson was quickly in hot pursuit of leader Laffite, haring away at an entirely different pace to Lauda.

“Once I got ahead of Niki, then I was off and running. Ten laps later I put it up the inside of Laffite. He saw that was I coming and there’s no way he was gonna stop me. He moved slightly to the left, clearing the entry to the corner.

“From that point onwards, all I could do was lose the race.”

Amazingly Watson was now in the lead with the best part of half the race left – he moved into first on lap 45, having a lead of almost 28sec over Lauda when he took the chequered flag thirty laps later.

Further bolstering his speed was his preference for Michelin’s ‘05’ compound. On that day in Long Beach driver, car and tyre were an irresistible combination.

“When I got back to the paddock, the look on the faces of Ron Dennis, John Barnard, [Marlboro sponsorship guru] John Hogan and Paddy McNally – they all needed to go to the medical centre to be given treatment for shock because they couldn’t believe we’d finished one-two!” laughs Watson.

Other weren’t so surprised: “Willi Dungl looked at me after the race and said ‘John, I knew you were going to win today.’”

Out of contract at the end of the year, the Ulsterman would be moved aside for Alain Prost, his F1 career over. Watson would never be able to properly take advantage of his newfound fitness and self-belief when the turbo TAG-Porsche McLaren came on line, but takes some satisfaction in taking his greatest win in his final F1 season.

“It’s a record that’s likely to stand for some considerable time,” he says, speaking at a time when Andretti’s attempts to get on the grid are still a hot topic.

“If you don’t have 24 cars on the grid, there ain’t anybody going to beat my record starting from where I started.”
Old 01-23-2024, 10:00 AM
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How BMW conquered F1 with Brabham and Piquet in 1983

https://www.motorsportmagazine.com/a...bmw-formula-1/

https://media.motorsportmagazine.com...ll/68.jpg.webp
https://media.motorsportmagazine.com...ll/69.jpg.webp



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Old 03-24-2024, 06:46 PM
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Damon Hill - The Story of the 1994 Australian Grand Prix ( Adelaide )

Old 03-25-2024, 09:34 AM
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I've been working my way through the F1TV archive.
Started in 1970. 70-80 was 1 hour recaps of the whole season. 81-83 1 hour condensed races with a few full races.
84, 10 minute highlights
They did have the full Monaco GP, but hoping this isn't the norm for further seasons. I was enjoying the 1hr versions.
Old 03-25-2024, 10:10 AM
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Yeah, I watched those a few years ago when it was free.

It makes me sad that this might be because the full GP footages are lost forever.
Old 03-27-2024, 01:06 PM
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Pat Symonds: Racing Into F1's Future | F1 Beyond The Grid Podcast


Not a household name but Symonds has been around alot of success, nice he found a good role in FIA.
Old 04-12-2024, 06:12 AM
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This Tech Changed F1 Forever | Pneumatic Valve Springs Explained!

I never knew about the non-linear rate of pneumatic springs

Old 04-15-2024, 09:11 AM
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Niki Lauda's McLaren MP4/2B F1 car laps Goodwood | Pure sound

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Old 04-15-2024, 09:13 AM
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I just finished that season 2 weeks ago.
Finished 1986 on Saturday.
IMO, 1986 was when the cars got better looking. The ground effect cars had some really odd looks [Brabham excepted], and some of the double rear wings were a bit
Old 04-15-2024, 01:48 PM
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Originally Posted by 00TL-P3.2
I just finished that season 2 weeks ago.
Finished 1986 on Saturday.
IMO, 1986 was when the cars got better looking. The ground effect cars had some really odd looks [Brabham excepted], and some of the double rear wings were a bit
The ugliness was offset by the willingness to try new things. Something that is sadly lacking now.
Old 04-15-2024, 01:57 PM
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You're not wrong. Seeing the vast array of different designs was quite interesting, along with the many engine variants.

Wish they'd relax the regulations to have some of that again.
Set a max displacements for NA/FI/Hybrid, allow some aero variation, but still maintain some cost restrictions to keep the top teams from 'buying' a championship & let them go wild.
Old 04-23-2024, 09:39 AM
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Why We’re Wired to Love F1 V10s

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Old 04-23-2024, 10:50 AM
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Wish I'd been able to attend a race in the V10 era.
Old 04-23-2024, 01:31 PM
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Too bad you missed it, I started going to F1 races in the DFV era
Old 04-23-2024, 01:54 PM
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I did get to experience the DFV when we were at COTA in 2017, with the Master's race. And they had 2 '98 March V10s [IIRC] for the 2-seaters that year too.
Old 04-23-2024, 02:52 PM
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Unfortunately never attended a V10 F1 race (my older brother saw the Australian F1 race from 98-00 and said the sound was amazing). However did get to see and HEAR a variety of engines in the early to mid-80's Detroit Grand Prix. The engine sounds would reverbarate off the city skyscrappers, qualifying was amazing with the turbo's spooling up with all kinds of wastegate and popoff valves going on with the turbo motors. Heard the following motors, one of the greatest era's of F1 for diverse engines.

V8 DFV (Cosworth)
V-12 (Matra)
turbo straight four (BMW, Hart)
twin turbo V6 (Ferrari, Honda, Renault, Ford)
twin turbo V8 (Alfa)

I have to post a video of Lauda's 312T (1975) car starting up at Amelia Concors when I attended back in the late 2010's. I was ~6' from the rear and my left ear was ringing for the rest of the day.
Old 04-24-2024, 09:01 AM
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Old 04-24-2024, 09:03 AM
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They need a diet!
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Old 04-24-2024, 09:03 AM
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Ferrari's colors at Miami https://www.espn.com/f1/story/_/id/4...ami-grand-prix


Old 04-24-2024, 09:47 AM
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Originally Posted by F-C
They need a diet!
Looks are deceiving, the Cooper and McLaren are the same weight 500kg. Modern material science/engineering
Old 04-24-2024, 10:49 AM
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Originally Posted by Legend2TL
Looks are deceiving, the Cooper and McLaren are the same weight 500kg. Modern material science/engineering
The W11 is over 700kg, and the minimum weight under the current regs are right around 800kg
Old 04-24-2024, 11:46 AM
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Originally Posted by civicdrivr
The W11 is over 700kg, and the minimum weight under the current regs are right around 800kg
The W11 is 746kg weight which includes 80kg for driver (and all their gear) and any ballast to get up to the 746kg min. So subtract that and it's a 666kg weight compared to the 500kg Cooper and McLaren (car with fluids but no fuel or driver).
However fully agree modern F1 cars are entirely too heavy as shown on the table in this article. IMO the best example of the light and agile F1 cars was the early 2000's V10 years which looked so on the edge when tossed around the curves.

https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/ho...eigh/10246442/
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Old 04-24-2024, 12:00 PM
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The last two years I've been up close and personal with F1 cars at the International Auto Show in Toronto. The current generation cars are gigantic, from wheels to width to wings. I remember when they were so much smaller; after not seeing an F1 car in action from 82 until 1989, the first thing I noticed was how small the Marlboro McLarens looked in Montreal (all of the cars actually).
Old 04-24-2024, 03:02 PM
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Those size differences are pretty striking.
Does make you wonder, if we could get back to 90-00 sizes, keep the safety & performance we have today; if it would lead to better on track action, since the car wouldn't take up 55% of the track width anymore

Watching these older races (late 80s) and seeing overtakes on the grass, some bumping on track & they just keep going [with a lot of, sometimes related, attrition].
Old 04-24-2024, 04:36 PM
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Originally Posted by 00TL-P3.2
Those size differences are pretty striking.
Does make you wonder, if we could get back to 90-00 sizes, keep the safety & performance we have today; if it would lead to better on track action, since the car wouldn't take up 55% of the track width anymore

Watching these older races (late 80s) and seeing overtakes on the grass, some bumping on track & they just keep going [with a lot of, sometimes related, attrition].
FWIW, 90-92 car width was 2.2m, 93-97 2.0m, 98-16 1.8m , 17+ 2.0m
The late 70's to early 90's cars were the widest hence making passing so difficult especially at Monaco. Fun fact those middle two cars are wider than a Humvee which is only 2.1m
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Old 04-26-2024, 07:50 AM
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Hey since it's Friday, here's something a little different for F1 history.
So in December 1998 Spanish Playboy had a photo feature (shot in UK) with the famed British photographer Byron Newman and Playboy Playmate Alesha Oreskovich along with a Williams FW20 and Jacques Villeneuve. Most of the pics are nude or topless of Ms.Oreskovich with the FW20, in some wearing JV's racing suit or Williams mechanics shirts, spraying some Moet champaign or a Goodyear racing tire. It's very tastefully done and the best a Williams FW20 ever performed, and anyway here's a PG-13 B&W pic from the series about two dozen color pics out there on the Internet majority are NSFW , PM for URL. What's amusing is George Russell even tweeted about it some time ago.


Last edited by Legend2TL; 04-26-2024 at 08:03 AM.
Old 04-27-2024, 08:35 AM
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Lauda's German GP helmet being auctioned off https://www.retrogp.com/blogs/motors...oes-to-auction





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